Carbon 3D

Post, review and discuss any commercial machines. Try to include links, specifications and prices.
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octanees
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby octanees » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:38 am




crusoe
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby crusoe » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:11 pm


hegykc
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:26 pm

Great!

The sheets from "Silex" link are Wacker Chemie SILPURAN, and cheap enough to experiment with.

CaptElmo2165
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby CaptElmo2165 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:43 pm

Hi Guys - I've been lurking for a while but I'm really interested in this development and wanted to pitch in...

This new Carbon3D method's complicated oxygen inhibition of the polymerisation process is just a neat way of vastly reducing the peeling force - which is the aim here. If this process is patented, replicating it might not stop hobbyists but it would prevent us form producing parts to then sell on e.g. miniatures produced via this method. It would be best to have a method which was in no danger of patent but which achieved the same thing:

The Peachy Printer floats SLA resin on salt water for different reasons (I assume the resin floats because the salt increases the density, so we could use a sugar syrup instead). I also assume the partition between the resin and the solution is maintained because the two are immiscible, so... why can't we just add a small amount of high salt solution to the bottom of a standard solid vat and then pour resin on top of it? Focussing the DLP to the surface of the water might be tricky to say the least but we could then treat the water / resin interface as zero, drop the bed through the resin to the interface and move the bed upwards. As long as the bed moves slowly and continuously, disturbance of the interface might be minimised.

Thoughts?

hegykc
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:10 pm

Their patent must be for the whole machine/apparatus, along with oxygen control and slice surface calculation etc. That's why they talk about software that calculates slice surface area, resin flow etc. in the patent. They wouldn't get the patent if they just said hey we bought this micro film and now we can print continuously.
They had to fill in the patent application with something proprietary, which the micro film alone is not. That's why I call BS on all the speed control, resin control, oxygen control etc... It's all put in there to mask the real breakthrough. Which is as simple as putting a commercially available gas permeable micro film on the vat floor to get continuous printing.

You can't patent a micro film that's already patented and commercially available, nor can you patent continuous ball screw movement.

If they had invented the micro film itself, then it would be a totally different story.
If tomorrow I find out that rubbing this film over my big bold head cures cancer, can I patent that? I don't think so :mrgreen:

EDIT: And that's why I say the newer video doesn't show different printing speed. And I don't see any resin pumping container either. They needed these complicated over engineered components to actually get the patent, but threw it out of the newest prototypes because it's not needed at all. I could be wrong though :D

CaptElmo2165
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby CaptElmo2165 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:57 pm

I was sure the above post was incorrect, and to be fair there's seems to be some contradiction out there. My understanding was that you can patent an already patented product for a new use e.g. rubbing this Teflon on your head to sure cancer (if only right?). The complication would be that you wouldn't be able to produce the original product without first licensing the original work but, the original producer would not be able to use it for your patented application either. So called 'New Use' might be granted under an 'Improvement Patent':
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... 30250.html
(see the bottom of this page)

The reference below would appear to contradict that though:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2112.html

hegykc
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:10 pm

Last edited by hegykc on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zenon
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby Zenon » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:18 pm

I was talking about this technique on reddit and someone there brought up a great question that I can't answer, so I thought I'd pose it here.

What keeps the dead zone a constant size? Wouldn't more oxygen diffuse through the membrane as time goes on, making the deadzone bigger as the print goes on? The patent doesn't seem to specifically mention something in this regard, it only vaguely mentions that it's related to temperature and time, so is it just that the dead zone grows slow enough that you prints can easily finish in time before it becomes a problem? For that matter, what keeps the resin from just getting saturated with oxygen and unusable over time?

And a thought I had was, does this only speed up prints of small objects or objects with lots of holes in the x-y direction? Since when printing a big block, you couldn't keep up the same speeds as not enough resin could flow in the gap between the membrane and the model. Or is this a non-issue at the usual print sizes? I'd imagine a 19x10cm print would run into problems at the same speeds, with possibly the vat floor flexing upwards in the center of the print, at which point you'd have to revert to waiting in between layers or lifting the object up and putting if back down again as usual.

Sorry if this was discussed already, but I couldn't find any mention of it in this thread.

hegykc
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:28 pm

Just think about it as a "top down" system. Does resin get saturated with oxygen and unusable in a "top down" system? Does oxygen force it's way into the resin? Does the top incurable layer get bigger over time in a "top down" system. No.

Because that's all this is, a "Top down" system turned inverted. Or regular bottom up system "without" the vat floor. Imagine there's no floor at all and that answers some of your questions.

The "flow of resin between the floor and model" doesn't exist because the model is not on the vat floor. There are another 100+ layers of resin after the last solid layer, always.

People assume that just because something is permeable to oxygen that oxygen will somehow get forced inside the resin or through it. No, nothing's changed, no pressure change. The bottom layer of resin is in contact with oxygen just like the open top of the vat allow the very top layer of resin to be in contact with oxygen.

Zenon
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby Zenon » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:57 pm

Their patent talks about a gradient of oxygen in the resin a lot, so that's where I'm getting the idea that it actually dissolves in the resin. So maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the patent doesn't make it sound as if it's merely the resin floating on top of a layer of oxygen.

And the flow of resin between the vat and the model definitely exists. The resin that get's cured and lifted has to be replaced by new resin, I mean, that's what's happening when the level of the resin goes down while you print, and if the model is big enough and the resin has to travel a long enough distance from the side of a print to the center so that it actually matters, then it will be a problem. My question is if this would be an issue at common sizes or if it'd only become a problem at prints of a meter diameter or even larger. There's only so much resin that can fit through a 100 layers gap at any given time and at some point, something else has to give in. If that's the vat floor, the adhesion to the print bed or something else, I don't know.


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