Carbon 3D

Post, review and discuss any commercial machines. Try to include links, specifications and prices.
Phife
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby Phife » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:31 pm

I didnt ask how much the 3" film was as its not useful to me, or really any DLP printer as its too small. He did say that the Teflon AF was $25,000/kg!

Im still looking for a supplier who can provide a large enough film. I'll let you guys know what I find out.

hegykc
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:33 pm

Here's something else:

In the patent it says that the membrane/vat floor/ should have oxygen permeability of at least 10 Barrers.
Definition of a Barer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrer
basically the volume of gas going through a square centimeter of a membrane in one day. I get kind of lost after that. What's the "mm" after the dot in 1 Barrer =....
So 1 Barer = 846 milliliter . mm / (cm2 . day. bar(a))
that means 846 milliliter ". mm" per square centimeter of sheet, in one day at atmospheric pressure. I don't know if ".mm" means "for sheet thickness of 1 milimeter?

Anyway FEP film has permeability rate of 11600 milliliters (m2 . 24 h . atm) for 25 micron sheet.
meaning 11600 milliliters per square meter of sheet, in one day at atmospheric pressure, for 25 micron sheet.

Teflon FA1600 has permeability rate of 340 Barrers, and FA2400 has 990 Barrers. Doesn't say what thickness. How do we compare that to fep?
http://www.professionalplastics.com/pro ... 00Data.pdf

Converting m2 into cm2 is easy, but sheet thickness I don't think so. It does say that the thicker the sheet, the less permeable it is.
EDIT: Well if you disregard sheet thickness, and if my stupid math is anything close to correct, Teflon FA is something like 1 million times more permeable to oxygen then fep. literary, those are the numbers.
----------------------------------------------------------

So 2800$ for 18% 100ml bottle. That yields 18 cm3 of Teflon FA sheet.
Lets say you mold a 50 micron sheet of 20x30cm, for a 15" monitor. That would be 3 cm3, enough for 6 sheets.
So about 466$ for that 15" sheet. But 233$ if you go 25 microns thick, and so on.

Now, if it's 1.67 g/cm3 then the research quantity is 93$ per gram of pure Teflon FA yielded from the resin solution.
25.000$ / kg would mean 25$ per gram
was that 1kg of pure FA powder, or resin solution?

How hard would it be to cast/make a sheet that thin, well that's going to be one expensive answer :mrgreen:

crusoe
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby crusoe » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:08 am

The GPU 'slicer' I am working on would have no such problem. Right now it slices in set layers, but there is no reason I can't make a continuous mode.

We'd just need to add the math. Frack fixing the tiny rendering defects I have right now.

FEP film is 11,600 cm^3 / ( m^2 * day )

1 Barrer = 846 millilitre * mm / (cm^2 * day * bar(a))

I suspect mm is film thickness.

11600 cubic cm = ~ 11600 millilitre

0.5 mil = 0.0127 mm

1m^2 = 10,000 cm^2

11600 ml * 0.0127 mm / ( 10,000 cm^2 * day * 1 bar ( atmos press ) ) = 0.014 Barrers.

hegykc
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:39 am

I think we can disregard the thickness value because:
1) permeability actually goes up with less thickness
2) it's not a linear change, but a logarithmic one
3) doesn't really matter to us 1mm thick or 0.00125mm, just how many cm3 per day

and fep is 1 cm3 per day, and Teflon Fa is over 800,000 and minimum should be 8,000

vinto
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby vinto » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:37 am

So, they just mod the vat and print 100x faster? Awesome.

hegykc
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Re: carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:26 am


pizzaslice
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby pizzaslice » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:53 am

Sources:
Biogeneral: length continuous, width 80 mm thickness between 30 micrometer and 100 micrometers, price is $240 per 100 mm (85 mm wide), thickness of 0.055 mm and 0.080 mm are available.
Random Technologies: order constraints unknown, prices unknown,

DIY Approaches;
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 017562.pdf
Spinning Teflon AF 1600 solution (6 Percent in FLOURINERT® FC40 solvent,3M Company) at 500 rpm for 1.5
seconds, followed by 1,000 rpm for 3 seconds onto Borofloat glass wafers, results in a 10-micron-thick film of extremely
smooth Teflon AF. This spinning process is repeated several times on flat, blank, glass wafers in order to gradually build a thick, smooth membrane.
After running this process at least five times, the wafer and Teflon coating are heated under vacuum at 220 ºC for one hour in order to drive off any
residual solvent present in the composite film. After this, a second blank, glass wafer is brought down from above and the stack is held under vacuum at 3 atm mechanical pressure for ten 10 hours.
Note: you have spin coaters for 300 mm and 450 mm wavers


Note:
1.
The sheets seem to be around for some time; see Laser Induced Damage in Optical Materials: Proceedings of a ..., Volume 1441 page 295
Reference is made to the following spec sheet; E.I. DuPont, de Nemours and Co. Inc. Product Information Sheets, "Aflom Te 1600 Amorphous Fluoropolymer"and "AFflon Te AeFl Amorphous Fluuropolymer" (may 1989) E.I. DuPont No.183.887/ A and No.183.88/A
2.US 20040003714A1
There is a note that a mix of Teflon AF 1600 and Hyflon results in a better gas separation membrane. It might be interesting, but as it doesn't say anything about the permeability of oxygen or optical transmission, I am not looking further in it.
Last edited by pizzaslice on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:45 pm, edited 8 times in total.

hegykc
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:26 am

Thanks for the info. A spinning apparatus would not be that hard to build today. I mean, with an arduino and a stepper motor you could even program it for that specific recipe. Heating it in vacuum under 3atm pressure also not a problem.

But I wonder if nasa over-engineered it. Because they need it to be on that level, or simply because they can.

What if we just pour it on a glass wafer and put another glass wafer top, with 0.0127mm fep on the edges, and sandwich it together. That would produce a 12.7 micron layer of liquid TeflonFA. And heat that under vacuum.

Anyway, regular fep is also available in liquid, so maybe some cheap experiments are in order:
http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon_Industria ... eflon_fep/

Maybe something even cheaper than liquid fep...

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octanees
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby octanees » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:36 am

Yesterday I made a test with my DLP printer regarding carbon3d system.
Unfortunately, something goes wrong in parameters, but one important thing is that I am using a FEP VAT configuration and design simmilar to the MIICRAFT system, a high tensioned FEP(150 microns thick) over 4 mm framed glass.One image of my aluminium CNC VAT for reference:
Image



The peeling was AWESOME moving up on Z just only 32 microns at slow movement and WORKS perfectly ,so guys I think that is not needed a expensive Teflon, I recently buy several FEP sheets on projectsinterestsandetcetera.com and works great.My problem is that is appearing in the printed piece VERY TRANGE layers separations, aprox 500 microns between each slyce!!!!! and I am using 32 microns between layers!!!. Would be great if you can help me with that guys, that is the parameters that I used trying to emulate Carbon3D vehaviour:

Image
Image
Image




and the FAILED printed result with that parameters:

Image



the result would be like my usual prints with my machine at 50 microns, and surely with the ¨dog print¨ I am having some kind of error with parameters.I post for example a 50microns 3D print with my printer, Layertrace:


Image
Image




CONCLUSSION:
I was IMPOSSIBLE for me to eliminate in Creation Workshop the BLACK screen images between white slyces images, and It was impossible too to have a fluently CONTINUOUS movement without any kind of stops, the process in CW was the usual:
1 project slyce
2 black image
3 move up
4 and project slyce again.

I think that this technique needs a constant projection WITHOUT black images, and needs a CONTINUOUS movement,without Z stops between process.That is possible with creation workshop guys??
Last edited by octanees on Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.



hegykc
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Re: Carbon 3D

Postby hegykc » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:55 am

CW uses blank command after the slice, as far as I understand? And a 1600ms built in delay after the retract.


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