IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

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ImagineThat
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:34 am

IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

Postby ImagineThat » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:04 am

1) I am new as a poster to your site. But have been reading and following posts for many months.
2) I had an idea but did not know the terms to describe it. After doing a google search I found a children's school web site that discusses my basic concept and some terminology. the web site is: http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/homeexpts/l ... iquids.htm

3) Here are the terms I found so I can describe my idea:
The word “miscibility” describes how well two substances mix.
Oil and water are said to be “immiscible,” because they do not mix.
The oil layer is on top of the water because of the difference in density of the two liquids.
The density of a substance is the ratio of its mass (weight) to its volume.
The oil is less dense than the water and so is on top.

4) My Idea:
IF a liquid could be found that is IMMISCIBLE with Liquid Resins being used in todays 3D DLP Printers,
THEN we can use a very thin layer of this IMMISCIBLE liquid in the bottom of the resin vat to create a barrier
that would allow continuous build of the resin.

5) IMMISCIBLE Liquid Attributes
a) The IMMISCIBLE Liquid would need to have a greater Density then any or all Resins to be used.
b) The IMMISCIBLE Liquid would need to be transparent to UV wavelengths being used to cure the Resin.

6) Benefits:
a) This would allow the continuous build of the 3D object
without the heavy Expense of the Teflon AF 2400 film used with the Carbon 3D CLIP Technology.
b) Since the companies that create Resins are most likely chemists and also know the density of their
resin materials,
1) they could most likely mix up a sister product for each resin that is clear to UV light frequencies and also
2) they could design it to be significantly more dense than their resin so that it is less likely to easily move
or mix with the resin during the build cycle

So that is my idea. Since I am not a chemist, I leave it to those of you who are experimenters to try and bring this idea to life,
and then FREELY share the solution to all the others on this board. Hopefully you will not patent the result and charge us a lot of money.

I have a lot of other ideas to share if this one get positive response.
I am old and not used to posting on boards, but think some of you with younger minds
could easily solve this one problem.

Thank you for considering my idea.

ImagineThat!
ImagineThat!

Hugues
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

Postby Hugues » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:33 pm

Hi, welcome,

the idea was kind of discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2767&p=8766#p8766

and this thread gives link to other posts on similar topic,

seems it would not be easy to avoid disturbing this thin layer...

ImagineThat
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:34 am

Re: IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

Postby ImagineThat » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:09 pm

Thank you Hugues. I appreciate the thread reference.
Back to the drawing board.
ImagineThat!

ImagineThat
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:34 am

Re: IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

Postby ImagineThat » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:26 am

I have spent a lot of time trying to think of another way to allow for a constant build that
for bottom up does not require an oxygen permeable window because of the next to impossible availability and cost prohibition.
I do not see an obvious inexpensive solution so I decided to rethink some of the concepts for top down.

In thinking about top down the issue becomes the prohibitive cost of filling a vat with resin to allow for enough depth for a build of any significant size
relative to height. I kept coming back to the idea of using an immiscible liquid. But this time instead of using it to create a barrier between the bottom window and the resin for purposes of bottom up build, I thought why not use this concept for a top down build. By using another inexpensive liquid in the vat it could allow for depth of print without filling that depth full of resin. In order for this to occur the inexpensive liquid would have to have a heavier weight or specific gravity than the photopolymer resin. I found that water has a specific gravity of 1, as it is used as the measure against all other liquids. I also found that at least one Photopolymer Resin indicated that it had a Specific Gravity around 1.12-1.13 g/cm3
[ https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/ ... DS+v10.pdf ]
So this specific resin is a bit heavier than water.

My hypothesis - is that if someone out there could experiment with a small portion of their extra resin - they could try and find a liquid that is much heavier than most if not all Resins. So that the Resin would float on top of the inexpensive liquid. And only a small amount of resin would be required to float on top of the inexpensive liquid to allow for the build. As the build stage lowers into the resin each layer would be created and the stage eventually will move past the layer at the bottom of the resin and into the top portion of the inexpensive liquid. This would allow designers to create deep vats without requiring it to be full of resin. And it would allow for the build to be reasonably continuous. As the stage moves down the resin would restore its equilibrium over the build to allow the next layer to be created.

Possible Considerations:
If my idea is correct I predict that it would work best of there is a lot of difference in the specific gravity of the inexpensive liquid so that it does not create a wave as the stage moves down.
I also predict that the inexpensive liquid needs to not be easily mixed with the resin (ie Oil and Water) so there is a strong need for the two liquids to remain separated as the build continues into the vat.
I also predict that as the Resin is used up the TOP of the resin relative to the stage may be changing - ever so slightly - it may be negligible - but should be accounted for. So if this idea works in a preliminary test, then a method to determine the location of the top of the resin relative the the stage would allow for a more accurate build for larger objects (of greater depth). This TOP of Resin issue may also be significant to the distance of the light source to the resin for purposes of focus (this may be less significant when using a laser as a source and more significant when using a dlp projector). So the height of the light source might also be on a z axis allowing for computerized adjustment as the resin goes down.
To determine the height of the resin it might be possible top use any kind of measuring device from very simple to sophisticated reflection of light that is not of a frequency that would solidify the resin.

I would like to get some feedback from anyone that has some experience in these matters as I am still very new and do not have access to any of the resources to test this theory. If anyone can test these ideas we could brain storm solutions to issues as they occur. The end result would help everyone to advance the quality and speed of a build.

Thank you for your consideration of this idea.
ImagineThat!

ImagineThat
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:34 am

Re: IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

Postby ImagineThat » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:29 pm

So I am researching the new Nexa3d and NewPro3D. I read about their potential for a patent dispute.
When I looked to see what their idea was that was in dispute, it is the idea to place a thin oil layer above the vat glass that sits below the resin so there is a no contact zone allow continuous printing.
I said that sounds like the idea I posted on this forum.
The same year that they each filled for a patent pending!
Now I don't know if I have any rights for having an idea, freely sharing it on this forum with a request for ideas to implement it,
next thing you know someone else is patenting that idea and using as their own.
I may not have any legal rights, but I thought open source was for people sharing ideas to further the technology as a group not to exploit ideas so others can not use them because someone else went and filed a patent.
So if anyone else out there knows if this idea can be protected since I shared it freely on this web forum and also on other forums, then lets make this idea open source for everyone to use and further the technology as far as we can all go as a group.
ImagineThat!

ImagineThat
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:34 am

Re: IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

Postby ImagineThat » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:52 pm

https://www.google.com/patents/US20170129175

This is dated the month AFTER my above post.
ImagineThat!

cooly
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 7:54 am

Re: IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

Postby cooly » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:23 am

I'm not a patent lawyer, but guess their application should be declined if the patent idea is identical to yours and your posting to general public is earlier than your posting here. It's just an application, but USPTO might approve almost all applications unless there is a clear reason to reject. If you're going to keep your idea in public and do not want specific party to have an exclusive right, I guess there is some way to appeal to USPTO not to approve their application. However if the patent idea proves to be a big money, somebody else will do in the future definitely to make the patent to be in public domain. :D

MisterTedWoo1
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:35 pm

Re: IMMISCIBLE Liquid layer between Resin and VAT window IDEA

Postby MisterTedWoo1 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:52 am

[first post]

Just wanted to add that you can float at least some resins on salt water*

*Although marred by an embezzlement scandal, the Peachy Printer uses a saline solution that is drip fed into a pipe that runs to the bottom of the tank (fills from the bottom). This early demo shows a thin layer of resin successfully floating on the surface (and the prints come out very well):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80HsW4HmUes

I'm going to use saline in my DLP projector printer, but without a drip feeder - I just want to use less resin for large xy area prints