Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

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James
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby James » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:53 am

eg123 wrote:Hi James,

I feel that apart from big companies, there are many individuals like me, that are "in the basement of the science building" working towards
making their printer to work like the Carbon 3d, no PDMS. If anyone finds some kind of product or a way that works, how would you recommend
going about it?

Patents are a long process and can become expensive.
A friend of mine says that "They are worth as much money as you are willing to spend defending it"
What is your thought about that?

If some one were to come up with some innovative way for printers to work like the Carbon 3d, what would you recommend?
To go through a patent? Or bring it to market because nonstick surfaces is rudimentary?


The first step is to NOT do any work on your invention with any of the computers that you use to get online. There is a lot of cyber warfare going on these days and also a lot of industrial espionage too. If you're well known, then you need to go even farther and do your computing in a Faraday cage to prevent patterns from being assemble from your computer's EM emissions. I would even advise that if it is something super important that one not even use a computer at all. Just do everything the old fashion way if possible.

Get a registered patent attorney and then have then draw up a provisional patent. This will cost around $500. Your invention is then considered patent pending and you then have one year to file for an utility patent. You would ask your attorney how long it would take to prepare and file the utility patent and then subtract that from a year and that's about as much time as you have to shop the invention around. When it comes to 3D printers, if you have something spectacular then you'll easily find investors to throw in all kinds of money to help you move forward. If your invention wasn't that great or you just weren't lucky enough to make some kind of a deal then you would be stuck having to file for an utility patent with your own money which could cost anywhere's from $5000 to $8000.

If you didn't have that kind of money to file for an utility patent you could go down the open source hardware route. There is plenty of money to be made in the area of open source hardware so that's always an option to keep in mind.

One thing about patents are they scare people. Even if your flat broke and you cannot afford to pay an attorney to litigate infringement proceedings in a court of law, you still have the scare factor of a patent. Look at Apple. They just lost a couple hundred million dollars by infringing on somebody's patent. With these kinds of stories floating around in the air people tend to be very careful when it comes to patent infringement.

Although nonstick surfaces are rudimentary when it comes to SLA 3D printing, I wouldn't let that hold you back from pursuing your putative invention.
I prefer to know nothing about everything rather than everything about nothing. :)

eg123
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby eg123 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:15 am

revygcam
I will PM you.

Thanks.

eg123
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby eg123 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:16 pm

Thank you James for that "WWJD insight" What Would James Do.

I hope someone soon comes up with a solution to dealing with PDMS.
A solution that will have its cost, but not be extremely expensive that only few can afford to pay.

revygcam
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby revygcam » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:07 pm

eg123 wrote:revygcam
I will PM you.

Thanks.


(Hi eg123, since your PM question to me was still non-specific, I will give my response here in the public thread instead in the hope that others can benefit from it if they find it useful).

As a small inventor, for anyone to take you and your invention seriously, you need to either fully or partially expose it, getting feedback and establishing enough legitimacy to have people back you up with enough money to help you get and defend a patent, build a business around it and/or sell/license it.

These days the best way for the small guy to establish that he is the rightful owner of an invention is public exposure to the world. I know it sounds scary and maybe even unfair, but that is the only practical way that no one else can patent it or claim it as their own before you do. You then have a year to file a patent after that exposure (in the U.S. only, any such exposure would disallow patents in other countries permanently), but you are at least guaranteed that no one other than you can file for that patent, especially large corporations with deep pockets.

As a side note I would fully advise you (or any small inventor) against approaching a large corporation without having first established publicly that you are the rightful inventor. They will likely listen to you (if you sound legit), assess if what you have is worth taking, then proceed with no hesitation to simply take it from you. Their NDAs and promises are usually not worth the paper they are written on if you don't have the power to enforce them. Small inventors rarely do.

Furthermore, you need to be careful even considering to go the patent route if you don't have deep pockets and/or big backers. As you know, dealing with and filing for patents are expensive. They also usually do not protect the small inventor the way they do large corporations. Even if you have a solid, fully enforceable, issued patent (usually takes 3+ years and a lot of expense and paperwork to get to that point), you are not guaranteed that - if your invention is useful enough - a large corporation will not simply do the "business" math and copy it anyway, knowing you will have little to no resources to sue them or even if you do they have more firepower to discredit it or somehow get away with taking it from you.

This is why public exposure becomes even more important. It will have the added benefit of making the large players pause and re-think about claiming the invention as their own since by definition the world "knows" you were the inventor and it would be bad publicity for them to be exposed for stealing your idea. Believe it or not, this may in some way be better protection than a patent that you wouldn't be able to defend due to lack of resources!

So again, if your invention is sound and has business merit, you need to fully or partially expose it to the world, file for a provisional in the US within a year of exposure, and get investors to help you with the non-provisional and defending of that patent, as well as building a business or licensing etc.

Or simply expose it without pursuing a patent if you don't foresee that you will be able to gather the resources to prepare, file, maintain, and defend it. At least you are establishing yourself as the one who invented it and may be able to pursue other business models to monetize on it, stopping all others from claiming (or patenting) it as their own.

Regardless, you need to prove that your invention does what it claims, you are legit, and what you're claiming is novel, before anyone takes you seriously enough to help you get money for it.

Anyone that thinks they can go it alone is delusional.

I suggest you make a video that can verify what you claim is true and post it to a site like YouTube with links to this forum. You don't have to expose everything (or any part that you feel may be patentable), just enough to make people start taking you and what you're claiming seriously so you can build up a reputation and take it to the next phase.

eg123
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby eg123 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:05 pm

Thank You revygcam
You are absolutely on point.

With in the past year I sighn a NDA with something different than what I am working on right now and I can see now
what the purpose was for.

I beleive it is a treasure for me and many others who are working in the "Basement of the science building" to read what you
shared with us.

Thank You. Thank You, Thank You.

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James
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby James » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:16 am

Just keep in mind that if you're going to make a disclosure before filing do so in a robust way. What I mean by that is don't just go to some obscure forum to mention your invention and leave it at that. What if the owner of the forum or some moderator saw your disclosure and deleted it and then filed an application before you? In this case, you would have a very hard time trying to prove that you had made a disclosure on the forum prior to the application. Even on a huge site like YouTube who is to say some YouTube employee saw your invention disclosure and then deleted your video. See what I mean? So if you're going to make a disclosure before filing either a provisional or non-provisional patent application disclose your invention EVERYWHERE! That way it would be very unlikely that someone could delete your disclosure information and then file for the invention themselves.

In my case, I am extremely cautious about anything having to do with online. You would never catch me making any kind of disclosure whatsoever online. There is just too much hacking activity going on in the world these days. Even if I were to publish an invention at numerous online outlets, was to prevent some well-organized hacker group from getting in to each of those places and deleting the information? Yes I know it sounds absurd, and I could even publish my invention in other ways such as media outlets that have no relation to online, but I'm just the kind of person that likes to deal in absolutes and not have to worry about anything that I can think of that can go wrong . :lol:

Even filing has a small degree of risk since one would need to deal with third parties. Although, I don't take my paranoia that far. :D
I prefer to know nothing about everything rather than everything about nothing. :)

gizmo3dprinters
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby gizmo3dprinters » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:53 pm

Not sure if it is relevant for you guys, but we went top-down and it seems to be working great, yes you need to fill the vat if you don't want to print on salt water, but you never need t replace any components.

When I was doing my research I learnt that you shouldn't show the specifics of your invention in public before patent pending, if you do, you could lose some rights. Easiest is to just not show anything to anybody until patent pending and don't give specifics to anybody until patent pending. This is why with all our videos we only show the parts being printed, we don't show what we do to achieve it. There is a step after patent pending that costs a bit more than patent pending and then you are protected internationally for another 18 months. When your 12 months + 18 months have expired I believe you then need to start paying in every country where you want the patent, every year, for a very long time. This is my understanding, could be wrong. More focused on the printers than the patent law, that is what the attorney is for :)

We paid alot more than $500, because multiple searches had to be done and alot of people where working on the patent pending. The $500 is probably the lowest without patent searches and just putting something together quickly. Like most things, you get what you paid for and if you believe your invention is worth a billion, like Carbon, get someone that will do a proper job.

DO3D
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby DO3D » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:32 am

Dear All,

great topic, great forum! I' d like to ask your opinion on a patenting issue regarding a 3D printing invention.

Brief introduction and background: started building a dlp printer in 2012 with very limited resources and manged to put together a decent machie over the past years. Since 2014 as a start up trying to establish a 3D printing business in the Central European region. Continuing printer developments we had an idea that we beleive has a good potential in keeping 3D technology moving forward.

We are in a patent pending stage and would love to hear feedbacks from experienced users, 3D enthusiast, people who really understand additive manufacturing and all related issues, basically guys like you here at this forum.

Application went into the local patent office in august last year, we still have 7 months to take it to PCT level but the patent attorney said that if we share any information without NDA during this period we will not be able to add anything (additional info, claims) to the PCT. As we are still in testing mode adding more experiment based knowledge into PCT is definitely an option we would like to keep. As you guys mentioned before NDA - no matter how well written it is - does not seem to offer enough protection.

We want to go public as soon as we can but then again not sure how to do this right.
Any opinion on the above mentioned would be highly appreciated!

Thanks,
Marton

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James
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby James » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:10 pm

Hi Marton welcome to the forum,

I was going through old posts and saw your post. I didn't see your comment until just now because hackers have turned off my email notifications on this forum. I would say that once your patent is obtained to go to 3D printing related blog sites and tell them about your new invention. Probably the most prestigious of these would be TCT Magazine. Also, talk to the IEEE, they are very popular when it comes to all things technology related.

Any body else know of any good places or methods?
I prefer to know nothing about everything rather than everything about nothing. :)

DO3D
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Re: Carbon3D's CLIP patentability

Postby DO3D » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:12 pm

Hi James,

thanks for the warm welcome and the useful links!
Neither did i receive any notofication about your reply...
Anyways as soon as its is possible i will definitely let those and you guys know about the idea!
Might even inspire somebody and the basic concept could be taken further ;)

Cheers,
Marton